In response to, what appears to be, a Zionist troll on Gringoes.com concerning the current slaughter in Gaza

In response to a lad who comes across as a Zionist troll on Gringoes.com facebook forum.  My question to him, which he still has not answered at end.

First 2 article on the massacre that is currently happening in Gaza right now: #GazaUnderAttack – Israel might be winning the battle, but they are losing the war! + End the slaughter in Gaza now!!!

(3 related posts on Gringoes.com: 1: Gaza Crisis: El Salvador Joins Brazil, Chile, Ecuador and Peru to Recall Israel Envoy 2: Brazil taking further steps in the right direction (Brazilian government recalled its ambassador from Israel) 3: Brazil making sense (Who Voted—and Who Didn’t—for U.N. Investigation of Potential War Crimes in Gaza)

The state of “palestine” quiz

To point out from the start: As someone who agrees with the (mostly) accepted scientific position that we, humans, all of us, evolved from apes, who evolved from other lifeforms, which at one point was all mixed up in a weird primordial soup on a strange little bit of rock in an even weirder universe… I dont belive in the idea of “god”, i dont believe in “those old stories” (organised religions) I respect others believing in what they want, once they dont use those views to do not very nice things. And I certainly dont agree with the racist ideas that one “race” (whatever that is) is better, or of a higher level of developement to other races…

I see life as a complex story, which unfortunately has gotten very messy with lots of people not being very nice to each other and trying to justify their actions by this and that. I see the idea of “peoples”, “countries”, “nations”, “nation states” etc… as artificial constructs which we have used for a long time.

People evolved and they moved about, different people lived in different areas, they called themselves by a name, or at times a name was put on them by others… time went on, people moved about. Some groups fancied a bit of what the other had so either took it, shared it, or a bit of a mix of both, in most situations and cases things got messy, as to what is what and who is who…

Forward to the modern age and we have different empires growing and taking control of others “lands”, those that had been there earlier felt bitter about this as they considered those lands their “country”, sometimes there were deeds and legal codes recognizing such zones, normally the edges being the critical bit “this bit is ours, that bit is yours”etc… Most of the time there were conflicting codes and interpretations as to who really had got it right. Normally wars and their end definded such lines, ie look at a map of europe today.

A little later we get “nation states” and that is what the world normally works off today. Its not perfect, it has plenty problems but the international community, it appears, seem to agree that it is a system they can work with.

In finishing this intro, i am “irish”, from the island of ireland. For a long time it was officially part of the british empire, 800 years of occupation is the number mostly bandied about, the “indigenous” there never left, despite some horrific attempts to have it this way (plantations, “to hell or to connaught”, penal laws, famine (islands population is just a little over half of what it was 150 years ago)…) eventually after continued “resistance” to the “occupation” (occupiers law didnt read things this way, but amends have been made in recent years) “they” left, well mostly, “they” stayed in the top corner of the island, then those 2 sides had a nasty fear and hate filled war up there, then in the late 1990’s there was “peace”…

But the reality is far more grey then this simple narrative, there was mixing, there was changing of sides for pure life and death reasons (eg; taking the penny) and after 800 years lots of the “them” had become “us”. Some viewed it wrongly as a religious thing; catholics versus protestants. It wasnt that. Some see it as “indigenous” versus the sons of those who came over to “plant”, it wasnt that. After 800 years of little babies having a bit of identity problems “Am I Irish, am I English, am I British..” aswell as really liking much about their “home”, the culture, music, people, land, language (many languages were spoken, sure even in England they spoke french for years, and english today is only a new mix of a thing due to efficient trading across the channel.. far younger than the romantic latin languages of portugues, spanish, catalan etc…. ) they were labeled “anglo irish” but turned out to be “more irish than the irish”.

After the french revolution sparked an idea through the modern world about the rights of man and how all are equal… the idea took hold on my island. The “revolutionaries” of the day called themselves republican (after the french republic) but they happened to be protestant. The flag that embodied their ideals, like the french, a tricolor, actually came from france, the green represented the indigenous, the orange the protestant and the white the peace between them, united in an independent republic, free from all control of HM, his or her majesty, the king or queen of england, on a free independent island, where the people there, regardless of what they were, or saw themselves as, could just get on with the busy enough thing of just living….

Anyway. You know how it went. To put the oddities of country into perspective today. This year “ireland” won the “6 nations”, the european rugby cup (waaaahhhhaaaaaayyy hon BOD), but that team represented the whole island. In soccer there are 2 official teams “Northern Ireland” and the “republic of ireland”… when it comes to singing our songs, in rugby now it is not allowed to sing the “irish national anthem” outside of ireland for the rugby games and a new tune “irelands call” was created… By the way, football, or “soccer” as we call it is only the 4th most popular game, rugby the 3rd and the top 2 being our own indigenous games “hurling” and “football” (irish or gaelic football). Also until not so long ago, if you played the indigenous games, or GAA as we call it, you were not allowed play “foreign games”. Thankfully that has changed and now we are free to play all.

So anyway, that was just to point out that things are complicated.

Now onto this request from this infuriating dude who seems to just try to stir up shite and stop normal people condemning the PURE ACTS OF GENOCIDE, ETHNIC CLENSING and WAR CRIMES that we are experiencing in Gaza at present…

The state of “Palestine” quiz

https://i1.wp.com/www.romanoprodi.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/palestine.gif

 

10517525_10154441532905022_6696548219249010949_n

1 – when was the country of palestine founded and by whom?

Couldnt tell you who the dude, or dudette was, but the egyptians and greeks and a rake load more of peoples have gone about them, THE PALESTINIANS in a zone near enough to where gaza is today..

2 – what were its borders

over the centuries and indeed milenia, again not sure, but in times, it has been an “area”, not a “country”, not a recognised “nation” within different empires. Untill the 1940’s it was a zone under british control, before that it was part of the ottoman empire, run by the turks for a long time.

3 – what was its capital?

I think jerusulam, as being the centre of the idea of home for the palestinians

4 – What were its major cities

gaza, jerusulam, ramalah, haifa, bethlehem, jerico, janin, hebron…

5 – name one “Palestinian leader” before Arafat

if palestinians were under the “arab” umbrella around lawrences time, perhaps king feisal

6 – what was the language of the “country of Palestine”?

I’m sure like most other old peoples, they have gone through a series of languages, from muslim times arabic and local dialects have probably prevailed. Many know probably have to speak hebrew too, probably over the years there has been a mix of hebrew too.

7 – what was the prevalent religion of the “ancient country of Palestine”?

Like most “peoples” they have gone through a mix, from pagan, to monotheistic and a mix. Todays palestinians are a mix of things, muslim, christian (within this more mixing; catholic, orthodox, probably a few evangelicals, 7th day baptists etc…), perhaps even jewish and a few smaller ones like perhaps bahai, zoroastrian… Most today are muslim

8 – what was the name of its currency

again a mix of different currency spanning the centuries

9 – couldn’t be arsed typing, see image above

not sure, checking online today “The Israeli shekel (ILS) and Jordanian Dinar (JOD) are the currencies of the West Bank.”, check converer yourself

10 – since there is no such country of “Palestine” today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

I live in brazil and since 2010 my country of residence recognizes “Palestine” according to the 1967 borders, as outlined by various UN (united nations) agreements. Therefor part 1 of your question is wrong!

I agree there has been a demise in Palestine and to its peoples, the Palestinians.

After being promised an independent state by the British, but being tricked, that was part of the demise.

But the main demise was from the start of a process of ethnic clensing of the palestinians from their homes from about 1947 onward by jewish people who wished to ethnically clense the land they believed should now belong to them; a jewish homeland “nation state” for a jewish people (some say it is written in the holy books that they should live in “their land” again, but as an atheist, i cant believe their stories and i disagree that this gives any justification to actions of ethnic clensing, racism, terrorism etc…) This is all part of the twisted logic of a racist policy; zionism.

Just to point out here, seeing as our friend tries to play the “your against Israel, you are a racist jew hater” card, I am not anti jewish, i am against those that support zionist policy. My understanding is that the core philosophy of zionism (racism, terrorism,war, stealing of land, ethnic clensing…) goes against the core philosophy of judaism, which is pretty similar to core philosophy of its religious brothers, the other 2 monotheistic religions; christianity and islam, all from the same family… simply try to be nice and respectful and live a life in a way that you would like others to live regarding you..

I stand in support of all jews who take a moral stand against war crimes and state terror by today’s israeli state. I take my hat off especially to the brave jewish israelis who refuse to carry out state orders to go and kill, preferring instead to do time in prison. I also acknowledge and support all the jewish israelis who are standing up against the present actions in Gaza, there are 1000’s of them in the streets now, but we also hear the shocking tales of them being attacked by ultra right nationalists… (sounds a bit like the actions of many European neo nazi groups, ie greece’s golden dawn for example)

For more on the difficult dynamics of zionism and israeli and Palestinian history id direct you to a fine documentary by an ex israeli soldier:

The Zionist Story, an independent film by Ronen Berelovich, is the story of ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid to produce a demographically Jewish State.

From the author: I have recently finished an independent documentary, The Zionist Story, in which I aim to present not just the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but also the core reason for it: the Zionist ideology, its goals (past and present) and its firm grip not only on Israeli society, but also, increasingly, on the perception of Middle East issues in Western democracies.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/zionist-story/ (Portuguese subs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jNYlUj2gMU )

11 – why did the Palestinians never try to become independent until after the devastating defeat of invading Arab states in the 1967 six day war?

I think they did, they pushed for it with the British and believed they had achieved a step of sorts, but were. Imagine there were small revolts against the Turkish empire at times..

***
Therefor, I will go along with the Brazilians on this one, so here is map of Palestine, going along with the 1967 borders of WEST BANK and GAZA STRIP.

I agree with the 2 state solution, each as an independent country, without outside interference and with control of related resources. Some argue this Israeli offensive is to grab the gas in the sea outside gaza…

(maps via wikimedia: Palestinian territorieshuff post)

https://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Occupied_Palestinian_Territories.jpg

 

Related Vid: Israel and Palestine, an animated introduction.

***
Question to him here:

By the way Ricardo M. Depaula, why have you such a high level of support for Israel, are you israeli, are you jewish, are you brazilian??? Where are you based? Are you taking to the streets, wherever you are, to wage your war? Here in Curitba, jews, muslims, christians, atheists walk hand in hand, all condemning the death in destruction in gaza, the claim is now 1000 dead…

U seem quite knowledgeable, but also quite extreme in your one sidedness about Israel being totally justified in their actions. So much so, you claim Chomsky a moron… not your intellectual equal? Many would beg to differ, whether they agree or like his views or not.

I wonder just how big is the Israeli war machine, not the death squads in gaza, but the “war of communication“… With all their money, tools, software etc…

“…Israel is using a ballooning staff of professional public-relations officers skilled in social media and a near-real-time war zone video center.”

They are still losing the war on public opinion. And now with US media shifting… im sure you will even agree that this is a turning point, again not that you like it..

I wonder how many people in the Israeli “online war room” are engaging in online discussions and arguments, exactly like this one here on GRINGOES.COM, with direct order to fight the battle there, or simply to disrupt? I doubt our little discussion is of that level of importance to them, but it would make one wonder…

 (This post was written on August 1st, but posted below first 2 Gaza posts, hence the published date being different)

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